Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to never just a dog. I'm your host, John Littlefair. In this episode, we're joined by Eliza Rose Khan, a registered music therapist whose passion for both music and healing has led her on an incredible journey. Join us as Eliza shares her inspiring path to becoming a music therapist and the transformative power of music in the realm of therapy.
So what have you been doing for your holiday?
[00:00:38] Speaker B: It's only Monday nights that I don't have to work, so I get to go to sleep a bit earlier.
That's what I get to do because I travel to Bunbury on Tuesday mornings and I work in Bunbury three days a week. So, yeah, getting to have a bit of a sleep is nice. So long asleep. Yeah, that's it. Cause I get up at, like, I was getting up at 430. Cause I started working Bunbury at 08:00.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Oh, wow. So you travel down to Bunbury, which is. What's that?
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Let's say it's two and a half.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: Two and a half hours, depending on the traffic.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: And then you drive back at the end of the day or do you stay?
[00:01:14] Speaker B: No, I stay, yeah. So I have, like, all of my family live in Bunbury. No one's from Bunbury, but we just ended. They all ended up there, except my parents, who live in Perth.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: I do want to explore your journey to becoming a music therapist, but firstly, tell me what a music therapist does.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Music therapy is registered with the allied health professionals of Australia, so we're recognised as an allied health profession. And how we define music therapy is using musical interventions to achieve non musical goals. So those goals could be spiritual, emotional, social, cognitive and more.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: And going back to your earlier journey with music, did you get your talent from your mum?
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Both, actually. So both of my parents are musicians, they're both recorded artists, they both have EPs and work out. Mum is. Yeah, a singer and she takes two community choirs in Perth and she also works as a music tutor. So she teaches piano and singing at a couple schools and then dad originally trained as a music teacher. He's gone into campus ministry now, but he still sees one of his friends once a week to do music and record and create.
Yeah, just more as a personal hobby, but, yeah, they both have big musical backgrounds, both very, very talented.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: So do you have brothers and sisters?
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I have one brother. His name's Noah and he's a couple years younger than me.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: Is he a musician?
[00:02:51] Speaker B: He is like a soundcloud musician. He likes. He does record. He does record with one of his friends, but it's kind of more rap stuff. So the rest of our family is quite folk, indie rock kind of vibe. And then Yanoa's just like a complete black sheep. Yeah, completely different kind of music.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: I know your mum's name, but what's your dad's name?
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Chris. Okay.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Shout out, Chris and Coralie. Is that right?
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: That's amazing, having a musical family. So what age were you when you started singing? Did it start with singing or piano or guitar or all three at once?
[00:03:24] Speaker B: It started with singing, for sure. When I was like five, I was very involved in. Our whole family was involved in our church at the time. And I would sing at our Christmas carols that we'd hold in. Where was it? At the Cottesloe Civic center. We'd get like about 5000 people coming to those. And from five I was singing, like, away in a manger on the little microphone and stage. So, yeah, early with that and then piano. I started around the same age, four or five. And then I taught myself guitar when I was about 14.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Singing, piano, guitar. What's your favourite to play?
[00:03:58] Speaker B: I think singing, that's what I did my degree in. Yeah, I love singing, but I also love playing. I'd say probably guitar more. I don't know. I just play guitar more. Cause it's easier to take around. I played more in sessions, but I really do love all three.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: So do you have just the one guitar?
[00:04:15] Speaker B: I've been a struggling uni student, so one for now, but I would love to have an electric guitar.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: With your early career, as I say, I do want to get into music therapy. But you studied at the West Australian Academy of Performing Arts. Name some of the other. Some famous people that you know that have also studied in this very, very famous academy here in Western Australia.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Hugh Jackman.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: Just a little one to drop in this one.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: That's the first one, yeah. He didn't do my course, though. I did contemporary music and I think he did music theatre. Meg Mac, she did my course.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Meg Mac's fantastic.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: Have you ever seen Meg Mac live?
[00:04:57] Speaker B: I haven't, but I'd love to.
De Craye Montgomery. He was in stranger things. And Tim Minchin is another Tim Mitchin. Legendary legend.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Just such a star, that guy. So tell me about the course you studied. Contemporary music.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah. So it was a four year degree.
I went straight out of high school into uni and it was great. We had beautiful lecturers, a beautiful group of musicians that I was studying with. Some of them were also straight out of high school. But we also had quite a few mature age students as well. Yeah, it was great. I got to sing in bands. I got to really refine my craft, which is singing and, yeah, learn technique from really talented singers and learn music skills from really talented musicians as well, who taught us oral and theory skills. So that's more of the written and technical work.
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Wow. And how long was that course? Was that?
[00:05:54] Speaker B: Four years.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: Four years. Was it a diploma that you was.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: A bachelor, a bachelor in arts in music?
[00:06:02] Speaker A: The skills that you developed and acquired and were taught, that must have been a massive leap forward for you.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I think confidence as well. My confidence grew. My songwriting grew. I hadn't written many songs before I started at WAPAB, and by the end, I felt pretty confident I could whip them out overnight. So that definitely grew. Yeah. Which is really handy now in music therapy as well, to have those.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: So you finished with Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts. Tell me your inspiration to getting into music therapy.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: So it actually started in high school. I was first introduced to music therapy. My mum had seen a tv show on ABC, and she was like, oh, Lizzie. That's my nickname, Lizzie. I think you'd be really good at this career if you're ever interested in it. And so I watched the documentary as well, and you might have seen it. It's quite a popular one. It's about a music intervention being set up in a nursing home, especially for people with dementia. And they put these headphones of familiar music on, and you just see these people light up and all of their personality and their emotions, and it's just a massive shift, you know, and just the power of music to be able to, you know, do something like that and provide that for that person and for their family as well, to be able to see. To be able to see them how, you know, how they used to be.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Was it then that you thought, I want to do that, or was it.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: I was like, okay, mom, thanks, mom's no best. Here I am. So I was like, it was in the back of. It stayed in the back of my head, but I was like, okay, let me just do. I needed the music degree anyway to apply for music therapy. So I was like, I'm just going to spend my four years having fun doing this music degree, singing in bands. And I did that. I absolutely lived out those days in uni, and I loved it. And then at the end of it, I was like, okay, I think I do want to apply for music therapy, and I'm really, really glad that I did. And, yeah, that's how I got into music therapy.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: How do you apply to get into music therapy? Are there prerequisites?
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So you need to have a bachelor in music or a relative degree. So if it's not music, something else, kind of therapy based. So maybe a social work degree, a psychology degree, occupational therapy, just something else in the realm.
So you've got an idea and then you also have to send in audition tapes. So you have to send in, I think it was three songs of you singing and playing guitar. So everyone that goes into the course needs to be able to play guitar and also three songs on your main instrument. So my main instrument was singing, so I was just singing along to tracks. But other people, if their main instrument was saxophone or flute, then they'd audition on those instruments as well. And then if you kind of get through that round and, you know, your audition tapes are good, then you go into a interview with a couple of the lecturers from music therapy and they just chat to you about why you want to do it, what kind of experience you've had in the area, what you know about music therapy. And they also like you to have attended a music therapy session before you go, not as a participant, but just like, viewing. Viewing the music therapy session happening. So I did that and I went to a, like a mums and bubs kind of group of music therapy. Yeah.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: Do you remember what the first week felt like when you started to study to become a music therapist?
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Nervous, nerve wracking. Because I'm quite a shy person in a group setting, and all of our orientation stuff was online, but I remember it the first time we had to do improvisation, which is just where you play anything, kind of when you feel like it with other people. Nothing's planned, and it's reacting to other people in the moment, listening to other people, and it's like, grab a random. You had to, like, grab a random instrument from in your house and just sit there and sometimes play. And this works a lot better, I feel, in person than online. It's kind of like everyone's timid and there's lag and all of our classes were on Zoom, so I was. I didn't. I didn't want someone to, like, hear a noise I made and be like, oh, Eliza made that noise. I don't know, I, like, I just had this weird feeling about it. But I feel after doing so much of it now, like, it's totally normal. But the very first session of improvisation was a bit intimidating.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: In the early months of your course, were you immersed in psychology.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: So actually, I forgot to include that. But you also do need to have done a psychology unit to apply for the course. So you have a little bit of an idea. So, yeah, definitely early on it was gaining those foundational psychology skills and understanding and music as well, how music interacts with the brain. So that kind of side of neuroscience.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Tell me how music interacts with the brain. This is so interesting.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So music interacts with both sides of the brain. You know how you have your left side and your right hemisphere? Music actually works within parts of both sides of the brain. And that means that when someone has a stroke and maybe they're struggling to speak, they can still sing, because even though that part of the brain that's interacting with speech is not 100%, there are other parts of the brain that are still lighting up to work with music and singing, and same with dementia, parts of the brain that may be affected by the dementia, other parts with memory and music, when that's initiated. Yeah. You get a response and you get people recalling stories from their past and it really triggers those memories.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: The brain's such a incredible, massive stuff on top of our, isn't it?
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: With psychology, what was that based around?
[00:11:53] Speaker B: We had to do a few units on that, so we had to learn counseling skills. So how to have a therapeutic conversation and how you portray your body can affect how someone interacts with you. So having a really open posture, leaning in and doing the nodding and the agreeing, making noises to, like, you know, show that you're interested in your listening and you're present.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: Did you go into specific areas of musical therapy?
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Yep. Addressed all of them? Probably not all of them, but a fair few. A fair few, yeah.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: So what was the. What were the ones that you addressed?
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So dementia, stroke, which is also acquired brain injuries and traumatic brain injuries, mental health, disability work, palliative care.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Did you do any studies on grief and bereavement?
[00:12:48] Speaker B: Yeah. In music therapy, how we would be addressing grief really depends on the person and what they want to get out of it, out of the sessions. For people that are in palliative care, so are dying, we'll often look at a lot of legacy work. So we look at leaving something, you know, that musical that the family can have and that can also help them deal with their grief as well. Having this musical thing, you know, that has been specially made for them by their loved one that they've lost. So whether that's writing a song with the person or leaving a playlist of songs that mean particular things and then reasons why, you know, reasons why these songs are important.
Heartbeat music therapy is another one. So recording someone's heartbeat and then maybe putting that to music as well.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: Wow. Heartbeats. Did you know there's a japanese island called Tushima where there's a heart archive? I believe it was created by the french sculptor Christian Boltaschi, if I have that right. You can listen through recorded Heartbeat archives and also record your own.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: One of my very close friends told me about it. When recording with your participants, will they necessarily be singing themselves, or is it sometimes you maybe write some music together and you perform the music and leave that as the legacy?
[00:14:18] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll often record it so they have a physical copy, burn it on a CD or put it on a usb so that yet they have their own physical copy. If they can sing and they want to sing, definitely up to the participant, but they are. That would be ideal if they can leave their own voice, but we're always happy to assist with that as well or sing together, you know? Yeah, it's really great when we can do music therapy sessions in the hospital with family members as well, because having those meaningful experiences in the hospital, it doesn't have to be a sad experience. You know, it can be really uplifting and. Yeah, another opportunity to process grief, because that process happens before a loved one has died. You know, one thing you brought up.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Before about working with your participants, even one on one, is putting together a playlist of music. What are some of the other ways you use playlists?
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Yeah, so we can use playlists to get people from one stage to another stage by using different songs intentionally to move from one point to another. So I'll give you some examples. So one example might be someone that struggles to get out of bed in the morning, maybe due to taking, you know, sleep meds, you know, feeling groggy in the morning, so we can meet them where they're at with a song that's maybe nice and calming and relaxing and isn't too intense first thing in the morning if they put that on, and then we'll order the playlist in order of songs that maybe speed up in tempo, a little bit more instrumentation is added, and that gets a bit faster, a bit louder until we've reached a point of really motivational music again, that's still their preference. All of the songs will be their preference, but we'll get them out of bed in the end. Another one might be people that, you know, getting motivated for the gym, using a song to get you off the couch and into the gym? Yeah, things like that.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: And that's your own music that you've written? Or do you use all different genres and different artists you bring into play?
[00:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's the participant's preference. So I might say to the participant, like, what's a song that you like to listen to that's really chill, that maybe has some acoustic instruments in it? And then they'd give me an example. That would be our first song. And they'd be like, okay, so now that we've listened to that first song, can we maybe think about another song that's similar but a little bit faster in tempo, so maybe still sticking with that acoustic sound, but a little bit more energy and then slowly build from there?
[00:16:53] Speaker A: That's mind blowing.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: And it's not hard. Just play. Press play, you know, and let it. Let the music do its thing.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: And now you work down at the hospital in Bunbury.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Yes. So I'm employed as the outpatient music therapist there. So my co worker, Jackie, she works predominantly in the hospital, and then I predominantly do outpatients. So I take three groups, I take two caregiver and baby groups. So caregiver, meaning it could be mum and bub, it could be dad and bub. It could be kara and bub. It could be grandparent, foster carer, any of the above. And. Yeah, so we're trying to move away from the mum and baby stereotypical, you know, way of viewing it, because it's whoever, you know, has that connection with bub and is raising them and wants to form that bond. That's what we're really focusing on in those sessions.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Is the session with mum and bub designed so that the baby as well, listens to the music? Or is it more leaning towards, let's say, postnatal depression?
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Is that. Definitely both, yeah. So giving moms and caregivers an opportunity to have that social interaction with other mums. And we also put a bit of education in the sessions as well. So different weeks will be focused on different topics around music and raising your child. So different ways that you can use music, whether that's with affirmations, using it to do daily activities like bathing or getting changed, you know, using song to distract in those times when, you know, it could get a little bit loud and challenging. Challenging, yeah. And then, obviously is for bub as well. So working on developing fine and gross motor skills, turn taking, really working on that connection between mum and bub. So it's really focused on mum or caregiver singing to Bob. I've done one intergenerational music therapy group, so that was at the retirement home that I was at. And then the local playgroup came as well, and we did a massive music therapy session with everyone. So I tried to pick songs that, like, old nursery rhymes that our residents would remember, and then that also, you know, applied to the kids because they were nursery rhymes. So, like, wind the bobbin up, obviously. Twinkle, twinkle, incy wincy. And then also doing things like sharing instruments, so giving the kids the instruments to hand out to the residents and getting that social interaction. And we had the residents blowing bubbles for the kids for some bubble songs. And it was really. It was a really great session, so I'd love to continue that in the future. So we have those caregiver and bub groups, and then we have also a neurodivergent group, so that's after school, one of the days. So people are primary school aged. Kids with disabilities and autism can come and we do a big session with them as well.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Eliza, I have one last question for you. Do you have a dog?
[00:20:01] Speaker B: We do. We have a dog called Daisy, and she's a border collie, crossway poodle. And I love her. She is very yappy, and she is. I think she's like, 16 or 15 now. She's getting older, but, yeah, we got her when I was, like, ten, so she's been in my life for a long time.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Oh, wow. So do you still take her on walks and stuff when you have time?
[00:20:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I used to love taking her to the beach, but the last few times she kind of got run over by puppies, like, they would literally bowl her into the sand. And so I was like, probably best for her back not to take her to the beach for a little while.
[00:20:42] Speaker A: Eliza, I can't thank you enough for chatting with me. This has been incredible.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: No worries. Thank you for having me doing things like this and advocating for music therapy, explaining it, because people are always really interested when I tell them what I do because a lot of people haven't heard of it before.
[00:20:57] Speaker A: Thank you for tuning into this episode of never just a dog. I hope you enjoyed it, and I'd love to hear your feedback.
You can contact me directly at my email, and I'll read every single email, which is johnlittlefair.com. Dot au dot.
[00:21:22] Speaker C: You got me out of toothbrush, said this one is beard.
Put it in the stand next to yours.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: It did.
[00:21:34] Speaker C: Didn't mean that much to you.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: But.
[00:21:39] Speaker C: It told me that you liked me, showed me that you cared gave me permanence in your home not just sleeping in your bed and these small thoughts you saved for me they give me butterflies they float around my head all day and brighten your eyes may you wake me up slowly and kiss me on the head your arms wrapped around me say three words unsaid.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: And it.
[00:22:34] Speaker C: Tells me that you love me shows me that you care gives you permanence in my mind secret moments that we share in those small thoughts you say for me they can't be but if I say float out around my head all day and then between your eyes so when I move a little closer and my fingers through your head watch the sun catch light in your eyes so a blissfully unaware I hope it says I love you shows you that I care keeps you permanently on my mind I see you everywhere in those slow thoughts you say for me they give me butterflies they float around my head all day and land right in your eyes.
