Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: For a lot of Australians, Toby the wonder dog was exactly that. The wonder dog, the clever dog they watched on shows like Totally Wild and Harry's Practice.
But every famous dog has a real life behind the scenes. And one person whose life is deeply entwined with theirs.
For Toby, that person was Dr. Katrina Warren.
Katrina is one of Australia's most recognised veterinarians.
She built a career not only caring for animals, but helping Australians understand them. Through television, books, public speaking and animal advocacy, she spent decades encouraging people to build better relationships with their pets.
Long before audiences recognised Toby, he was simply her dog.
I'm your host, John Littlefair, and I'm thrilled to welcome Dr. Katrina Warren to this very special episode of Never Just A Dog Dog.
Absolutely lovely to meet you, Katrina. And how are you going?
[00:01:25] Speaker B: I'm good. Thank you for doing this. And look, I brought up to do it. I brought up Toby just to have a picture of him.
So just if. If my pet, it's mostly the dog, starts banging on the door to come in. Is that a pain?
[00:01:38] Speaker A: No, that's not a pain at all.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Okay, brilliant. They're both out. Is much cooler out there. They're both happy as they're just always up and down.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Have you got two dogs?
[00:01:47] Speaker B: I've got a dog and a cat. So I've got another border collie now. So I had Toby, then I had a golden retriever, and now I've got another border collie, which is an interesting thing too, about how do you love a dog after you've had the dog? That's everything that was very interesting for me with my other dog. And then I've got a Maine coon cat, a big cat.
[00:02:06] Speaker A: I did see something about Toby. Is it 30 years since he came into your life?
[00:02:12] Speaker B: I got him and we can be vague around actual date. So it was his. He was birthday was Tuesday 17th, I want to say Thursday. So, yeah, his birthday was two days ago. But I picked him up at Easter in 1996. And I remember it clearly because it was Easter, but we filmed picking him up. We'd filmed the whole thing for Totally Wild a few days before.
Um, so, yeah, 1996.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Do you still remember that day?
Just like it was yesterday?
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Like yesterday.
It's really interesting. I think there's the memories that you have of your dog are the days you bring your dog home or you choose your dog or that they choose you if you're adopting them or whatever it might be. And the day you say goodbye. And those two days are just imprinted. And I was Young and it was my first real adult dog, that it was going to be my own dog. And you just don't forget a moment like that.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: It must have been so exciting bringing Toby home for the first time.
What were those early days like?
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Look, it was an interesting, it was an interesting time because I chose him. I was working on the kids show Totally Wild and I was working as a vet slash presenter and I could do stories on anything I wanted to do with animals and vets and wildlife and pet care and I was running out of stories. I thought I really wanted my own dog.
So it was part of a work thing for me because I knew I could take him with me a lot of the time. But when I brought him home and it was a big decision, what, you know, could I handle a Border collie? And I knew that was a really big commitment.
But I was living in an apartment at the time and I had to find somewhere to go to have the dog. And I remember I wasn't allowed to have. You weren't allowed to have animals in those days in apartments. And I brought him home on that first night. I had to stay there for two nights before I was moving into a house with some friends and I just remember everyone just telling me off and they're going to complain and you can't have this puppy. And it was quite a stressful 48 hours. And then I moved in with some friends and we had a bit more space and it was all very happy.
But you know, Border Connie puppies trick you because when you first bring them home you think, oh, it's full on. They're so cute and they're so easy and that, you know, they're all a little bit stressed because they've moved away and they're cuddly and they're quiet and they just slowly wind up over sort of six weeks, eight weeks, that four month period. And then by six months you're like, oh my gosh. They're just like, it's a lot, a lot, a lot of work.
[00:04:34] Speaker C: Did you name Toby straight away?
I was really interested in that. Or did he have a big, long, fancy French term?
[00:04:41] Speaker B: No. So. Well, he did have a kennel name, but he.
I didn't know what to name him. I was working at Channel 10 and I had a list, I had a list of 10 names. There's quite a few. And I took it around and I was asking everyone what name, what name? I had him under my. No, before I named him, before I had him, I think.
And Toby was the One that everyone was like, oh, that's a really lovely, you know, easy name to remember. Really cute.
Yeah. And he inspired. I still meet people, in fact, I get them still on my social media that say they named their dog Toby after Toby, which. It warms my heart.
[00:05:14] Speaker C: That's pretty beautiful, isn't it?
[00:05:16] Speaker B: What?
[00:05:17] Speaker A: Your intention to turn Toby into a star. I mean, you could never, ever predict that.
[00:05:23] Speaker B: Never in a million years did I think he would go on to be, you know, so well known and so well loved. And that was a. There's a bit of luck involved in that and the right timing. It was a very different era. But I did know that there was an opportunity back then because when there was no social media, there was only the four main networks, only a couple of animal based shows. So I did know that there was an opportunity when what we would do on social media now is like real time and live streaming. Whereas I was like, let's follow this puppy as he goes through his life. And it was giving me content and teaching me. And he was, he was really special. And I don't know whether it's just he was my first dog or the situation I had, but we learned. He taught me so much and I learned so much from him. So I never knew how to train a dog. Now there's so much more information online and then, you know, five years later or four years later, I find myself writing a book on dog tricks. But I'd never had any formal training because that dog taught me. We figured things out together. They are so smart. Border collies. And if you have the right one and you are fortunate to have the time and you spend that time, you can have a bond that in a million years I didn't understand.
And he taught me to understand how other people can have that bond as well. It's. You can't explain it to people that have never had it. But he was my teacher about all things dogs. He taught me that empathy for other people. He taught me to understand what other people were going through when they lost a pet. And that was before I lost him. That build up there, there is that anticipatory. Anticipatory. If I can get the word out.
Yeah. When you, where you start thinking about how will I cope without this pet and my current border collie started getting little gray hairs and you start getting that panicked feeling again.
When Toby was getting older, people would physically like, they would gasp in the street. Is that Toby? And it would, it would stab you. I'm like, yes, it is. You know, and he was getting a bit stiff in the legs and all that. And I was very protective of him then. And you realize, I mean, I guess it's like our favorite actors. And when people pass away and, you know, people comment on, you know, social media, things like, oh, you got old. And I was like, well, yes, I did get old, because it happens. It happens. And we're lucky to get older. And I was so lucky. He died like a couple of days before his 14th birthday. And I think that was. I mean, I would have loved some border collies. 15, 16, obviously would have loved that. But it was still an amazing innings. He was very healthy. But it really does. It really starts to affect you as you see this, and you start thinking, how. How am I going to cope without this dog? That has been my best friend.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: I did find out that when Toby first went to the studio, there was a complaint about him that he may have fleas.
I've been digging around a little bit. Am I on the right track with this one?
[00:08:23] Speaker B: The digging was.
He used to come up to Channel seven, which was out at Epping, back in those days. This big was really big block of land out there. But someone in the building complained that they thought bringing a dog into the building would bring fleas into the building. So we had to go through this whole thing where I had to write a letter. I'm a vet, and he's treated for fleas. And we had to get references. And it was this absolutely massive ordeal. But he ended up with his own security pass to Channel 7 in the end. But it was a lot. And I think things are a little bit different now since then, too. Like, he was around at the start. Start of this transition of more and more pets coming into the house.
It was still a time a lot of dogs lived outside. And, you know, I had trained him that he could sleep outside and inside. He ended up with them the whole time. But we still. We were transitioning to, oh, it's okay to have them inside.
And then now, I mean, gosh, most of us wouldn't dream of having our dogs outside.
[00:09:21] Speaker C: No way.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: You're so right. I grew up in a farm down south and we always had dogs. We always had Labradors. And at night they'd come in and lie by the fire and. And they'd get so hot that you'd have to drag them away from the mat because they wouldn't move themselves. But. But then they'd go and sleep outside and generally the cat would sleep on top of one of them.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Yeah. It's so. It is so different now. And I think our expectations are very different too. You know, we want the best healthcare for them and that's shifted. We want the best products. We treat them like humans. We include them in your birthdays, Christmases, and no one laughs at you anymore. And I've seen that whole shift over my career and it's been very pleasant most of the time. Sometimes you think at the end of the day, these are still dogs and a lot of these little dogs are not treated that way.
In some ways, I think we need to really allow them to be dogs more instead of just constantly telling them what to do all the time to fit into our lives.
So it has. The pendulum is swung. It's been beautiful to watch and it's interesting to. I've had many men and many people tell me the only time that they saw their dad cry in their whole life was when the family dog passed away. The only time men had told me they've, you know, I didn't cry when my mother died or I buried family members, lost it when their dog died. And that's a credit to the relationship that we have with our dogs. I've talked about that a lot. And it's not just a dog too. Obviously we're talking about dogs and that bond is unbelievable, that you can share with the dog, but it's never just a pet to the person that has that pet either. And it upsets me so much too, with sometimes other animals, oh, it was just a guinea pig. Well, actually that was that child's friend and confidant and the thing that made it happy and, you know, the little animal that they learned from. And same with the cat. You know, the cats are often seen as more replaceable than dogs, but to those people that love their cat, well, Kate is still really important to them. And so your topic, the title is, is absolutely perfect because I'm always saying that it's never just in anything. And I had a number of people and they don't mean it the way it comes out. With all my pets, are you going to replace them? And it's just the way I hate that term. Will you welcome another pet? Will you bring. Are you ready? Will you be ready for another pet? You know, that whole I can replace my dog or you never replace.
[00:11:40] Speaker C: Impossible.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Never replace any of them. And they're unique and they all absolutely take a piece of your heart when they leave you.
[00:11:48] Speaker C: What was life away from the screen with you and Tobes?
[00:11:52] Speaker B: It was fun. It was. I spent a Lot of time training him and teaching him.
And it taught me a lot about the Bond behind the scenes. Because everything in front of the cameras was always fun, fun, fun. But we'd, you know, whatever I was filming for, if we were doing a story on going for a massage and then Toby had to get a massage, then I would do a lot of work behind the scenes. But we had a lot of fun as well. Things doors opened for that dog that didn't normally open. So I got to stay in hotels that weren't pet friendly because there weren't many places back then. I got to do a lot of special things. He had his own driver sometimes drive him with shoot if I was doing a different shoe. Because these days we shoot our own content because that's what happens now on social media. But it was production and production values. So we had a great time.
He got to trial, you know, new products all the time. He was spoiled. And what gave me so much joy. And it still does even with my current dog. But he's nowhere near as well known as Toby was the joy that he would bring people, the smiles that he would bring people when I would go out with him in public.
And that's still. And it still excites me when people say, I remember Toby, you know, I met him one time.
That little bit of joy that an animal can bring in the smiles and the.
It breaks barriers.
You know, I still, wherever possible, if I've got to do a work event, you sometimes have to emcee something or go to something that's actually a little bit dull. But I'll say, how can I bring the dog? Because I know that it sort of takes the pressure off me because everyone's talking to the dog and everyone's happy and smiling. Can we take photos? And it really just lifts the mood and the spirits. And I have seen it over and over again when I work with. They're called the Wonder dogs, which is a team of border collies that we go to events and you just see the moment people lock eyes with them. It's a smile and. And the tactile nature of when you have a pet as well.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: Katrina, tell me about losing Toby.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: So. So what was interesting for me was I had a young daughter, though she was a toddler. And so that kept me very busy with her.
I actually had to go away when Toby passed away. I had to go to. A week later. I had to go to LA for seven weeks. And it was really. Well, it was. There's a lesson in this too, for Anyone listening?
Everyone gathered around when he died. So I had kept it out of the media for a few days because I wasn't prepared for it. Because I knew it'd be this big story and can't bear the headlines in the media. You know, when someone passes away, it's like, Toby, the wonder dog dead.
I just wasn't prepared. And sure enough, that was the heading. Toby, the wonder dog dies dead. And this massive big thing. And I think it's just so brutal.
That's. Did they do that to people as well? You know, when an actor dies or a musician, I think, oh, someone's family and loved ones. I just bit gentle, but so I knew that would be a big news story. And so we waited a few days, but all my friends knew and everyone gathered around. Everyone was beautiful and amazing. I got so much support. Oh, my gosh. My driveway was covered in flowers. It was really beautiful.
I went to LA for seven or eight weeks for this job. And I was surprisingly okay over there because I was flat out busy.
Had a. My. My baby was there too. My daughter, she's like one. So it was busy because I think, okay, I'm all right with this. I've managed this really well.
And then I came home and I walked through my front door to the empty house and it broke me.
Broke me. And I'd also lost my cat, the Millie, who was also on Harry's patch. So I'd lost her first.
So it was just dead quiet and nearly killed me. And you miss all the little tiny things, and often you miss the things that drive you bonkers. But then that's what you miss.
You want it back and you want to hear the clinking of the collar or the scratching of the nails, all of those things.
[00:15:44] Speaker A: Did you feel like, in a sense, the house had stopped breathing?
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Yep. The house didn't feel like a home anymore. It felt like part of me was missing. And then the interesting thing that happened after that was you realized that he was such a huge part of my identity and that was gone.
So most people, when I'd talk to people, and I still had. I had more of a profile back then still, because we just kind of wrapped up Harry's practice and everything.
People. We didn't have the same thing to talk about. People knew me for Toby and suddenly Toby was gone. I do a lot of work with Toby and then Toby was gone. So took a while to adjust to that as well and realized just how much he was part person I was. And we were like a team.
And what Was very interesting.
Is very, very few people after that period of time actually asked, oh, how are you going? Are you okay? Because pet grief, we talk about it a bit more now.
People would acknowledge it, oh, my gosh, this is terrible. And my friends were all like, this is a big deal.
But everyone's sort of made to move on from the pet grief. You don't talk about it in two months or three months like you might if a person had passed away. And I learned a lot about that because I found it got a whole lot worse. Two months, three months, four months. Because the silence is longer.
It's been so long since you've seen them, it gets worse and worse and harder, but not a soul.
So I always make an effort now to check in with friends that I know are going through that kind of grief.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: And as time goes on, you decide to introduce a dog back into your life again. Tell me about that.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: I was like, what do I do? I've got a toddler.
Can I do a puppy? I knew I couldn't do a border collie puppy with a toddler. It's just way too hard. And I always say that to people who are thinking about it, hold off.
You just cannot focus. Particularly a job like a border collie. You just. You physically can't be in all those places at the one time.
So what I did. And I tell people to think about this too. I was so desperate for something and also for my work, because I always work with animals that I contacted Golden Retriever Rescue because I always loved what they did. And I said, you know, if you find a dog that needs fostering, I'm. I've got my hand up for a. But it's. I had a criteria and I said, it's gotta be bomb. It's gotta be a bomb Proof temperament. Gotta know and trust it. Because I need, you know, I've got a toddler. I'd never leave her alone with him. But we need to know that he's comfortable around children, comfortable around things like prams. Doesn't pull on the lead. So there's all these questions that people forget to ask.
The last thing you want with a pram and a new dog is something that's pulling you up the street.
And ideally not a barker for just because of my scenario. And a couple of months later, they phoned me and they said, oh, we've got this unbelievable dog that's come in. He's the worst case of abuse we've ever seen. The poor dog was emaciated. He had. They Think he'd been tied up and used as baiting in dog fights. So we have. Oh, boy.
[00:18:48] Speaker C: That's terrible.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: Terrible, terrible. But he's sweet and gentle. We've tested him. We've run skateboards past with. He's really gentle, but he's really.
He needs to build up his confidence. And so I brought him on and watching.
Watching you, a dog, gain their confidence again. He came home and he put his head on my lap when he came home, and he just did not move. He had these dark eyes and he just looked and his tail just moved this tiny little bit.
Watching him progress over three, four months. And then, of course, I ended up keeping him. Adopting or not, I failed terribly faster fail.
But he was actually the perfect dog for where I was with my daughter. He was so brilliant with her kids. He was the classic dog. I could happily take him into school. You know, I took him into classrooms and things like that, and he would wag his tail. And I think he was just a grateful. He was grateful. He'd had a terrible time and he had this beautiful, just safe life.
And that worked really well for me.
It was a very different relationship to what I had with Toby. I was very much like a nurturer and a carer and giving him, you know, a new life that he deserved.
Toby was my heart dog. It was.
But he was beautiful. And he passed away. Gosh, when did he pass away? During the second round of COVID that we had here. 20, 21, 22. And then.
[00:20:14] Speaker C: What was his name? Katrina, what was his name?
[00:20:17] Speaker B: Riley. Riley. Riley Smiley. Riley. Smiley. Riley. Yeah. He was a really beautiful dog. So I was very lucky, and I was lucky, but I also made sure that I got the right dog for that right point in my life. I just think when you've got little children in the house, it's so important to take the time to try and actually find the right dog.
[00:20:37] Speaker A: And did your daughter take to Riley as well?
[00:20:40] Speaker B: So she's. She doesn't really remember Toby. She remembers Riley because he did so much with us. He. So much, you know, just with her school and just plodding along. But. But it was never the same. I didn't do a lot of training with him. He didn't love going in the car. He didn't love. I didn't take him to big events a lot.
I take him to small events and be happy and, you know, waggy. But I didn't. I never pushed him to do anything he wasn't comfortable with. But he was just a really beautiful, just the ultimate dog that I wish everyone could have as a family pet.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: You share so much life with a dog, don't you?
[00:21:16] Speaker B: I mean, there's never a right way, though. But I do think it's easier if you lose them and you feel like you're ripped off.
It's harder if there's a tragedy or young like that. Like, we was the same with people. We can say, oh, they lived a great Life. They were 95. They, you know, but when someone's life is cut short and we've all had those experiences as we get older of this tragedy, it's hard. And so pets, I think it's the same. So I can look back and go, well, Toby had a great life. I gave Riley a great life for his, you know, the 10 years that I had him.
And I hope my chili does. And that's all you can hope. So you're allowed to feel like, oh, I would have liked some more years. But, yes, you probably would have grieved hard.
And I think again, too, when people pass away, there's a funeral, there's this acknowledgment, and that can help. You know, they. They say with children, it's important to acknowledge. And with pet loss, you let them have a ceremony or do something where you invol the kids. And I think with pets, that's the other thing. It's like you send your pet off to the crematorium, and then the next minute you're standing there, someone's handing you a box with your pet in it on your own.
And so I always try to help friends out with that as well, you know, do you want me to come and help you pick up. Do you want me to pick up the ashes? Can I be there? Because it is so confronting when the pet that you love with all of your heart is being handed back to you and you want them home with you. But this is. It's a. It's a really tricky thing. But then I also. The flip of that is we only hurt so much because we love them so much and they do so much for us. So, you know, what a blessing to have that joy with Toby.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: Do you have a. Like a memory or memorial box of all of his special things that you carry around with you?
[00:22:53] Speaker B: I do. I have a little suitcase that had a whole lot of little mementos. He's got his Channel 7 pass in it, his favorite toy, a few other bits and pieces, his lead hung on the back of my door until I moved house. And then, well, I'm not going to hang it on the back of a new door because it doesn't mean the same thing. So that's now in that. In his little suitcase. But that little suitcase used to come with me on Harry's practice, like a Barbie suitcase. But we peeled it all off and turned it into Toby suitcase.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: That is so cool.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah, so I've kept that. What I wish I'd done for all my pets. And now you can get really quite cool ones. You can buy just really simple ones. I wish I'd done all of their paw prints and a lot of the crematoriums. There's some that. There's all sorts of different ones, but it's just a, you know, black print on a white card. You can get them framed. And I wish that I had that for all the pets that have come.
Yeah, I wish I'd done that. That's, you know, it's a. It's a really beautiful memento and you can get them framed.
I'm collecting pets now. I've got a few.
[00:23:53] Speaker C: And Chilli. How did Chile come into your life?
[00:23:57] Speaker B: Chili came into my life through Kelly Gill, who's a dog trainer and a border collie breeder that I worked with a lot. So after Toby died and we' worked a lot around the country doing events and with her Border collies. And he was just. He was one of her dogs and she asked if I would like Chili. And it was at the right time. It was just. It was perfect. So I'm very, very lucky. I was never sure if I could love another border collie like I loved my Toby. And to anyone listening out there, you absolutely can. You can find that love again. I love him. I love him with all my heart.
He's very different. He's got different. He's cheeky and quirky, but different. Cheeky and quirky to Toby.
But I have surprised myself that I love him deeply.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: Does Chilli still have dinner time up on your kitchen bench?
[00:24:52] Speaker B: You saw that video, did you?
He's unbelievable. He just jumps up in one jump.
He's unbelievable. Chilli will remember there's a morsel of food that on the. You know, when you're out walking him on someone's driveway, he'll remember three months later that there was that morsel there. You better just check just in case it's still there. He remembers everything.
So if there's a way to get up onto something or to open something, unlock a cupboard, he would know how to do it. Just not while I'm watching.
[00:25:21] Speaker C: They're sneaky, aren't they? They, they know exactly what they're doing.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah, he's very clever.
[00:25:30] Speaker C: What are you doing now? Mainly for work. You still, are you still doing television work?
[00:25:34] Speaker B: I do a little bit of television work across Today Show, a fair bit. I could do bits and pieces for Channel nine. I do it as it comes up.
I work at quite a lot of events and then I work for a lot of brands across social media, different pet brands because the world is very much online now. So I do a lot of my own content online.
It's not nowhere near as fun on a day to day basis. It used to be when I was out running around the country playing with animals as a job, I mean honestly I, I look back at that time, I was so blessed. I had the best job I could have ever had for who I was, the person that I was.
And I love just being able to teach people about pet ownership and I do a lot in the pet loss space. So that, that was one thing too. Losing Toby.
I spoke about it, I spoke about it very publicly. I spoke about it as social media grew so that I actually launched Facebook. That's when Facebook was first taking off as a tribute page for Toby because I didn't know what to do. I was like people wanted to leave tributes and that was my first. My Facebook page started was called Toby the Wonder Dog.
So I've always talked about it a lot because I think it helps a lot of people to feel like they're heard and seen and understood and they're not going crazy and valid and real and it's proper grief.
I enjoy that side of my work as well because I just think if that can help one person through that time or help one person know where to reach out to find the right support as well.
And I've definitely seen that shift. I've seen a lot more people talking about it, a lot more high profile people. I've. There's podcasts like this, there's a lot of people with profiles will now talk about that experience across their platform forms as well. And I think it's important and it is validating that bond. And I think we're going to see more and more of that, I hope. But it doesn't mean that everyone understands it or will ever understand it.
That's a nice thing you're doing. It's a really nice thing because I think it can really help people and sometimes it can just be a sentence or two where they just feel validated and that they're not going. A lot of people say to me that they felt like they're going crazy. That's how I felt. You feel like you're going crazy because you're trying to talk yourself through something, because you just want it to go away. You want the grief to go away. Like, how quickly can I get through this? Everyone's so different.
[00:27:55] Speaker C: So absolutely.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: Going back to Toby, how did he get the nickname Toby the Wonder Dog? Is that something that just fell out of the sky?
[00:28:09] Speaker B: I'm not sure how it started, but back then there weren't.
There weren't any wonder dogs. I don't know. I don't know if started in Channel 7 or whether I started it, but it stuck very quickly because it started off it was Dr. Harry and Rosie and Katrina and Toby, and then it was Toby the Wonder Dog. And then I did a book called Wonder Dog. It became Wonder Dog very quickly. I loved all of that stuff.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: Katrina, I have one more very important question to ask you.
What are some of the special names you use to call Toby away from the screen?
[00:28:43] Speaker B: There was all the ones from Toby. We used to call him the dude most of the time. So that which came from Toby do, then it was Toby Doodle. Toby Doodle Doodle Day. Then the Doodle, then the Dude. Like, it's just ridiculous.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. I used to call George King George Lambshanks iii.
[00:29:04] Speaker B: See?
Exactly the same. Exactly the same.
Toby Doodle Doodle Day.
Yeah, it's very funny. It's actually. I've done posts before on my social media about what? Do you sing silly songs to your pet and people write down all these verses and it's just also silly, but fun.
My cat's called Leo King Leo and he gets Leonardo dicatio. Various other ridiculous stuff.
[00:29:34] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to this episode with Dr. Katrina Warren. If you'd like to learn more about her work, you can find her online and through her website and social media.
And if this conversation meant something to you, you can find more episodes of Never Just A Dog with me, John Littlefair.
Because whether a dog is famous or known only to one person, to the one who loved them, they are never just a do.
